Heretic - Cookies

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Opulent
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Heretic - Cookies

#1 Post by Opulent » Sat Mar 02, 2019 1:56 pm

Thanks for the advice PVS.
I got crispy-heretic 3.2 and recorded the attached demo on cookies.wad.

It playsback fine with CrispyHeretic in WindowsXP or Windows7.. and heretic-plus on WindowsXP.
I recorded it with -demoextend but apparently crispydoom doesn't support that.

https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/level ... ts/cookies
http://www.greffrath.com/~fabian/crispy-doom_3.2.zip

I miss a secret.
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Re: Heretic - Cookies

#2 Post by PVS » Mon Mar 04, 2019 4:33 pm

Crispy-Heretic 3.2 have only limit-removing and not have any fixes/extension for vanilla Heretic demo format, you need more new version of crispy. I'm send you by mail Crispy Heretic 4.3 (2017), also I know that Crispy Heretic/Hexen exe's present in this stable build 5.4 2018 (look in folder 'nondoom' in archive):
https://github.com/fabiangreffrath/cris ... om_5.4.zip

You can use setup.exe and cfg-files from 3.2 version. Test this versions, maybe one of them will work well for you.

I read your txt for this demo, you again have memory problems, this is strange. I do not surprise that choco and crispy may have the same problems, because them based on the same source, but why you have the same memory error on Heretic-Plus - exactly this, very strange. Maybe you use 64bit Windows or use Wine under Linux? If you will have this problems in future, look error text in 'stderr.txt' file and send me. Because 'ZoneID' errors returns many functions, but with little different text, I'm interesting, what function exactly returns this error on your system. Also, you can try increase memory zone for ports, for example, for choco/crispy set 32MB (command "-mb32'), but I'm almost sure - this is not help.

Watched your demo:
Kills: 82/85 Items: 25/25 Secrets: 4/5

I did not see this map, very interesting look how someone play Heretic pwads, look in vanilla demo format, thanks. I know now, that not only I'm alone, recording such demos. Also, you can post such demos to kraflab DSDA database:
https://www.doomworld.com/forum/topic/9 ... fit-demos/

Why not? Heretic/Hexen demos are very rare. Interestingly, but this database more then 2 years contains only Heretic/Hexen demos, something like individual Heretic/Hexen base, I like this :)
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Re: Heretic - Cookies

#3 Post by Opulent » Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:06 pm

I'll try a newer CrispyHexen version next time.
I, like you, prefer the real game ... or as close to the real game as I can get.
(but it is nice to see a stat screen at the end.. and avoid gameplay crashes as well).

Yeah, the zoneid error is vexing. I'm not sure how to avoid it. The wiki says that it is a buffer overrun due to the map, so perhaps it won't be present in some maps. It is very annoying to have a good run that crashes. I had a lucky run on Cookies actually. One of the first two Bishops dropped a book, so I had an extra one to use for the middle fights... I was flying through the map. Of course, when it crashes, it doesn't leave behind a demo.... boo.

I skip the wall-secret secret in Cookies. That is the secret I miss and the 3 monsters. They are in the wall secret in the little teleporter 'dirt tunnel' room. I think you are supposed to lower each texture, then jump from above, but I gave up on it.

I love kraflab's DSDA! Very cool.
I won't re-post demos to Doomworld though, that is his webforum, mine is a real demosite. If someone wants these demos, they can come get them anytime. I don't think anyone else is interested.

thanks for watching!
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Re: Heretic - Cookies

#4 Post by PVS » Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:28 pm

I looked at this map, this secret not work because 2 Golems stuck tag'ed floor sector, due to Golems size, such things don't work on vanilla Heretic, this floor can't move down. You are absolutely not guilty that you could not open this secret, this is vanilla engine can't. This is map author mistake, I don't like ZDoom for such moments, because it "teaches" people how to make wrong maps. This map completely in vanilla format, I did not find anything not vanilla here, then, what is the problem to do it correct? Nobody is interested, everyone is using ZDoom, because it so easier...

I move these 2 Golems quite a bit - tag'ed floor move down normally now, secret opened. If you did not touch this secret in your demo - it would play normally even on a modified map, but you try open this secret and demo go in desync, because secret opened :)

It would be correct to fix all errors on this map, if I took it to modify, there are still a couple of non-closed sectors, there are not enough player starts, something strange happens with the first two secrets, and so on. But somehow I fix only this secret and began attempts to record demos, so, I leave this map as is, but it is possible to play it completely on the original engines.

My attempt: max in 7:41 (modified map inside the archive). I'm not sure that you can playback this demo, maybe again you catch a memory error on your system, but I not have such problems on Coven and this Cookies maps, on my old PC.
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Re: Heretic - Cookies

#5 Post by Opulent » Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:23 pm

Wow, that was great!
It actually never occurred to me to grab the green key early.

Good job! very fun to watch. This makes me want to watch your "Heretic and Hexen TV". :)
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Re: Heretic - Cookies

#6 Post by PVS » Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:02 pm

Yes, the map author does not know or has forgotten that it is possible to steal the green key in this way, but it can give an advantage only for speedruns on this map, I do not see that it helps a lot for max. Also, when I saw that in not working secret are located Gauntlets, I decided that it is necessary need to fix it, further I will try to tell one funny thing about gauntlets.

Most often, when I'm playing in Heretic, I like use gauntlets vs Maulotaur and I am always laugh from this action, because Player and Maulotaur heights have such values in the game engine, that turns out... what it looks like?
HotMaulotaur.png
I do not know exactly, how to correct say this in English, but yes, it looks like - I'm fry the Maulotaur's eggs! I'm not sure where this organ may have Maulotaur, but logically - it's there, behind this red rag, eh? So, in this action we also vampired life from Maulotaur, but it turns out - we vampired life from what? From eggs??? I wonder, Raven do this specially? Also, I will share one known recipe - one Tome is just enough to cook a pair of Maulotaur's eggs on skill 4 and 5, moreover, I'll tell the truth - I do this very often with Maulotaur and sometimes I'm not funny anymore, I feel sorry for him, oh ...
:)

If, under TV, you mean today's fashionable videos, then I don’t have that, and in truth, for me, playing any demo on a real game engine is better than any TV.
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Re: Heretic - Cookies

#7 Post by Opulent » Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:02 pm

Hahahaha that's funny. it is funny anyway to gauntlet down the Maulotaur.. this is extra funny.

I'm not versed enough in Heretic to know which weapon is the most efficient at killing him. I would think the rain if he was in a closed area. But I'm not sure when he is just running around.

By "Television" I meant your Chocolate-Hexen2.30se release with high-definition demos which autoplay.
And I agree, good playback demos are way better than almost all TV.
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Re: Heretic - Cookies

#8 Post by PVS » Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:10 pm

Everything said below is only my opinion and habits, I do not consider myself as a master of this game, and I don’t aspire to become one, I just like to play sometimes and that’s it.

Maulotaur is dangerous, especially its floor fire attack, if you not have armor then almost any touch of this fire will kill you on skill4-5. If I plan on attacking him with Gauntlets + Tome then first I clean the entire area from other monsters to stay face to face with Maulotaur, because if during such attack at least one, even the smallest monster, also inflicts damage to the player, then the Gauntlets life-vampire power will not be enough to compensate this and the player will die. One drawback of such attack is that the player will lose all his armor/shield, because this bull constantly knocks him on the head with a hammer.

Which weapon is better vs Maulotaur - depends on the player, game situation and map, as you yourself know. If I not have Tome and need attack him - I do it only at long range with all weapons that I have, if there is a possibility - it is better to attack on the water floor, in order to avoid its floor fire attack. Dragon Claw (4) + Tome - block him very well, he almost not move in pain state. The easiest and fastest variant: Phoenix Rod (6) + Tome + Ring can kill him in 10 seconds at close range, Phoenix + Tome one of the most powerful combinations in the game, but requires action at close range, which would be dangerous without a Ring.

Hellstaff rain I almost do not use, do not like, the rain is static, but monsters move constantly. Another point - can not be more than two rain's at one time, this is limited by engine, most likely it's done for hardware performance for that time. For example: shot once, twice - you have 2 rains, as soon as the third time you has fired - the first rain disappears, there is only the second and third. If I have no choice and need to attack with Hellstaff + Tome, then I usually do not hope for rain, I quickly shoot used main projectiles, they damage many monsters well.

Maybe it will help someone, or it will just be interesting, but in Heretic, as in other games, there are still many small details, know these details and use them - it's interesting.
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